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How The Warriors Outsiders Changed Postgame Shows

Ask about their story, and they’re happy to tell you. Ask them how much Warriors apparel they have, and they’ll say, “enough to not wear the same thing twice in a season.”

Jack Ferris




It was October of 2016 when Grant Liffmann was struck with an idea.  It was a thought he hadn’t totally fleshed out, but he knew there was one person who could help him put it together – his best friend Drew Shiller.

“I remember I called Drew and the first thing I said was ‘I have an idea, don’t hang up!'” Liffmann pauses and glances sideways at Shiller.

Image result for grant liffmann and drew shiller

“I’m not even sure why I opened with that?”

“I think it’s because you would always call about movie ideas,” Drew replies without skipping a beat.  

On a beautiful San Francisco rooftop, the two are sitting side by side on an unseasonably warm November day.  In a matter of hours, Shiller and Liffmann will be sharing their thoughts on the impending Warriors-Mavericks game on NBC Sports Bay Area.  The sight of Drew and Grant shoulder to shoulder – draped in Warriors gear – has become a very familiar view for sports fans in Northern California.  Their undeniable chemistry and rhythm, even in casual conversation, hasn’t just earned them popularity in San Francisco – it’s shifted the way Regional Sports Networks operate.

Just about everything can be traced back to that late 2016 phone call.

At the time, Grant was 29 and pursuing a career in Hollywood.  

Liffmann never saw himself as an actor growing up, but a couple friends at Cal gave him the idea while at school.  After graduating in 2009, the Berkeley Golden Bear had the audacity to move in with members of the Stanford basketball team in Palo Alto.  His Burlingame High School buddy Shiller was headed into his red shirt senior season with the Cardinal and offered up a spare room.  While his housemates attended practice and class, Grant had to deal with the real world.  A year of commuting to San Francisco up and down the peninsula Monday through Friday was enough to convince Liffmann the 9-5 life wasn’t for him – cue the move to Southern California.

“I was never a waiter,” clarifies Liffmann, as if to distinguish himself from the aspiring LA actor stereotype.  

He was able to find work with Sony doing everything from ad sales to distribution.  In his spare time he was auditioning and appearing in USC grad school films. Of course, living and working in Los Angeles, you’re bound to rub elbows with celebrities from time to time.  In Grant’s case – literally.

Adam Sandler’s Happy Madison Productions is headquartered on the Sony lot, as is his personal basketball court; Happy Madison Square Garden.  Whenever the Sandman needed some bodies for a run, Grant would get the call.

Image result for adam sandler basketball

“He’s a pretty dirty player,”  Grant recalls.  “I walked away from a pickup game once with a black eye.”

“Did you ever call him out on that?” Asks Drew genuinely.

Grant’s head tilts slightly while squinting his eyes at Drew.


By late 2016 and the aforementioned phone call, Liffmann was making progress in Hollywood, but he couldn’t get past a new idea that would ultimately alter his life forever.  It was the dawn of the NBA season, and both he and Drew were giddy about Kevin Durant joining their beloved Warriors, but Grant wasn’t calling to breakdown Xs and Os.

“I just felt like there was a hole in sports broadcasting.  Everything was always a suit and a desk.  I thought there was room for something new.”

In the years since the roommates parted ways in 2010, Shiller had put himself in an ideal place to receive Grant’s idea.

Straight out of Stanford in 2010, the former guard underwent hip surgery, effectively ending any shot at a career overseas.  Fortunately, the color analyst position for Stanford radio opened up that season, giving Shiller his first on air experience.  It was June of 2011 when Drew accepted a full time Digital Producer position at what was then Comcast SportsNet Bay Area.

A year later, Shiller found more opportunities in the studio with the newly launched PAC-12 Networks and a radio gig with the Santa Cruz Warriors.  Meanwhile, CSN Bay Area would toss their Digital Producer on TV anytime the rundown called for a college hoops discussion.  Just a few years removed from his playing days on the Farm, Drew was slowly establishing himself as a go-to Bay Area hoops analyst – as long as you weren’t talking NBA.  

Getting a call from Liffmann was hardly out of the ordinary for Drew.  The two were always on the phone discussing Bay Area sports, regardless of the season. However, that October night 3 years ago produced a very different conversation – one that would change the trajectory of their careers.  They hatched up an idea for Warriors coverage that they would want to watch, breakdowns for the common man by the common man.  Basically, a show with two dudes talking about the team they grew up loving.

Image result for grant liffmann and drew shiller

At the time, Facebook Live was still a new platform and media outlets everywhere were figuring out the best way to use the new tool.  It was perfect for Drew and Grant’s new show – “Warriors Fanalysts.” 

Drew went to his boss Geoff James, the Director of Digital Media for what would soon become NBC Sports Bay Area, and pitched the idea.

“He said ‘OK, put something together and show me what you’re thinking,’” Drew explains as the two laugh together, almost unsure how they ever got the green light.  With no promise of anything, Grant drove up to the Bay Area to shoot their “pilot.”  It went well enough that the bosses agreed to let the two take over Facebook the morning after games – with two glaring conditions:

1) Grant (who at the time was just Drew’s friend from Hollywood) would not be paid

2) They had to come up with a new name.

Happy to be gaining traction, Grant agreed to work for free.  Leaving his apartment in Los Angeles, he would live out of his mom’s place in Burlingame for a while.  As for condition 2, the boys needed outside help.

“I was G Chatting with Grant when I told him we needed a new name,” remembers Drew.  “At that moment Ray Ratto came by and said ‘well, you’re definitely not Warriors Insiders, what about ‘Warriors Outsiders?'”

The irony of Bay Area sports icon and Insider Ray Ratto coming up with “the Outsiders” should not be lost on anyone.  It was the only change they ever considered.


The first couple shows in the Winter of 2016 and 2017 were a little rough, as the guys remember.  Their friends were among the only people commenting on the FB Live feed.  Undeterred, they pushed on, breaking down the game from the night before in their own casual style.  One thing they had going for them was an excessive thirst for Warriors coverage in the Bay Area.  Eventually, more and more fans were logging on live or watching later in the day making the Outsiders more and more recognizable – and marketable.

Warriors sideline reporter Ros Gold-Onwude hopped on the show one day with the boys, and history was made.

“Our first sponsor!  I’ll never forget,” exclaims Grant.  “Iguanas Burritozilla out of San Jose.  They gave us a couple of burritos, some signage and off we went.”

“We were sitting like this, all three of us,” Drew demonstrated, nearly sitting on Grant’s lap with his partner nodding in confirmation.  

The stream drew an audience of 10,000 viewers.

By February ‘17 – the Warriors were firmly atop the Western Conference standings and the Outsiders were trending up.  Roughly a month before CSN Bay Area was rebranded as NBC Sports Bay Area – VP of Content David Koppett and General Manager Tom Stathakes not only decided to put the Outsiders on television, they wanted the high school buddies in the post game slot.  

As Warriors mania increased throughout the 2nd half of the season, as did the Bay Area’s appreciation for the Outsiders.  They were relatable, they were new – and they were now associated with winning.  The next season, the decision makers gave the Outsiders even more screen time by adding a pregame show for the 2018 playoff run.  In fact, the success of Drew and Grant was so overwhelming it spilled out of the Bay Area.

In January of 2018, NBC Sports Northwest launched the Trail Blazers Outsiders.  That October, Bulls Outsiders and Wizards Outsiders debuted up on NBC Sports Chicago and Washington, respectively.  In their own building, Drew and Grant’s influence reached into baseball season with Giants Outsiders launching in June of 2017.  

Two friends, a shared passion for sports, and one important phone call.

Image result for grant liffmann and drew shiller

Speaking with Shiller and Liffmann in person, you hardly get the impression you’re talking with two guys who – more or less – are changing the landscape of local sports coverage.  Which makes sense, as their whole appeal is their approachability.  Ask about their story, and they’re happy to tell you.  Ask them how much Warriors apparel they have, and they’ll say, “enough to not wear the same thing twice in a season.”

Ask them which is cooler – a career covering the Warriors or a gig working next to your best friend – they’ll say “both.”  

BSM Writers

Amanda Brown Has Embraced The Bright Lights of Hollywood

“My whole goal was that I didn’t need people to like me; I needed people to respect me.”

Derek Futterman




The tragic passing of Kobe Bryant and eight others aboard a helicopter, including his 13-year-old daughter Gianna, sent shockwaves around the world of sports, entertainment, and culture. People traveled to Los Angeles following the devastating news and left flowers outside the then-named STAPLES Center, the arena which Bryant called home for much of his career, demonstrating the magnitude of the loss. Just across the street from the arena, Amanda Brown and the staff at ESPN Los Angeles 710 had embarked in ongoing breaking news coverage, lamentation, and reflection.

It included coverage of a sellout celebration of life for Kobe and his daughter and teams around the NBA opting to take 8-second and 24-second violations to honor Bryant, who wore both numbers throughout his 20-year NBA career. They currently hang in the rafters at Arena, making Bryant the only player in franchise history to have two numbers retired.

During this tumultuous time, Bryant’s philosophy served as a viable guiding force, something that Brown quickly ascertained in her first month as the station’s new program director.

“I had people that were in Northern California hopping on planes to get here,” Brown said. “You didn’t even have to ask people [to] go to the station; people were like, ‘I’m on my way.’ It was the way that everybody really came together to do really great radio, and we did it that day and we did it the next day and we did it for several days.”

The 2023 BSM Summit is quickly approaching, and Brown will be attending the event for the first time since 2020. During her first experience at the BSM Summit in New York, Brown had just become a program director and was trying to assimilate into her role. Because of this, she prioritized networking, building contacts, and expressing her ideas to others in the space. This year, she looks forward to connecting with other program directors and media professionals around the country while also seeking to learn more about the nuances of the industry.

“The Summit is kind of like a meeting of the minds,” Brown said. “It’s people throughout the country and the business…. More than anything, [the first time] wasn’t so much about the panels as it was about the people.”

Growing up in Orange County, Brown had an interest in the Los Angeles Lakers from a young age, being drawn to play-by-play broadcaster Chick Hearn. Brown refers to Hearn as inspiration to explore a career in broadcasting. After studying communications at California State University in Fullerton, she was afforded an opportunity to work as a producer at ESPN Radio Dallas 103.3 FM by program director Scott Masteller, who she still speaks to on a regular basis. It was through Masteller’s confidence in her, in addition to support from operations manager Dave Schorr, that helped make Brown feel more comfortable working in sports media.

“I never felt like I was a woman in a male-dominated industry,” Brown said. “I always just felt like I was a part of the industry. For me, I’ve kind of always made it my goal to be like, ‘I deserve to be here; I deserve a seat at the table.’”

Brown quickly rose up the ranks when she began working on ESPN Radio in Bristol, Conn., working as a producer for a national radio show hosted by Mike Tirico and Scott Van Pelt, along with The Sports Bash with Erik Kuselias. Following five-and-a-half years in Bristol, Brown requested a move back to California and has worked at ESPN Los Angeles 710 ever since. She began her tenure at the station serving as a producer for shows such as Max and Marcellus and Mason and Ireland.

Through her persistence, work ethic and congeniality, Brown was promoted to assistant program director in July 2016. In this role, she helped oversee the station’s content while helping the entity maintain live game broadcast rights and explore new opportunities to augment its foothold, including becoming the flagship radio home of the Los Angeles Rams.

“Don’t sit back and wait for your managers or your bosses to come to you and ask what you want to do,” Brown advised. “Go after what you want, and that’s what I’ve always done. I always went to my managers and was like, ‘Hey, I want to do this. Give me a chance; let me do that.’ For the most part, my managers have been receptive and given me those opportunities.”

When executive producer Dan Zampillo left the station to join Spotify to work as a sports producer, Brown was subsequently promoted to program director where she has helped shape the future direction of the entity. From helping lead the brand amid its sale to Good Karma Brands in the first quarter of 2022; to revamping the daily lineup with compelling local programs, Brown has gained invaluable experience and remains keenly aware of the challenges the industry faces down the road. For sports media outlets in Los Angeles, some of the challenge is merely by virtue of its geography.

“We’re in sunny Southern California where there’s a lot of things happening,” Brown said. “We’re in the middle of Hollywood. People have a lot of opportunities – you can go to the mountains; you can go to the beach. I think [our market] is more about entertainment than it is about actual hard-core sports. Yes, obviously you have hard-core Lakers fans; you have hard-core Dodgers fans, but a majority of the fans are pretty average sports fans.”

Because of favorable weather conditions and an endless supply of distractions, Brown knows that the way to attract people to sports talk radio is through its entertainment value. With this principle in mind, she has advised her hosts not to worry so much about the specific topics they are discussing, but rather to ensure they are entertaining listeners throughout the process.

“People know the four letters E-S-P-N mean sports, but really our focus is more on entertainment more than anything,” Brown said. “I think the [talent] that stick out the most are the ones that are the most entertaining.”

Entertaining listeners, however, comes through determining what they are discussing and thinking about and providing relevant coverage about those topics. Even though it has not yet been legalized in the state of California, sports gambling content has been steadily on the rise since the Supreme Court made a decision that overturned the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act established in Murphy v. National Collegiate Athletic Association (2018). Nonetheless, Brown and ESPN Los Angeles 710 have remained proactive, launching a sports gambling show on Thursday nights to try to adjust to the growing niche of the industry.

Even though she has worked in producing and programming for most of her career, Brown is eager to learn about the effect sports gambling has on audio sales departments. At the same time, she hopes to be able to more clearly determine how the station can effectuate its coverage if and when it becomes legal in their locale.

“I know that a lot of other markets have that,” Brown said regarding the legalization of sports gambling. “For me, I’m interested to hear from people who have that in their markets and how they’ve monetized that and the opportunity.”

No matter the content, though, dedicated sports radio listeners are genuinely consuming shows largely to hear certain talent. Brown recalls receiving a compliment on Twitter earlier this quarter where a listener commented that he listens to ESPN Los Angeles 710 specifically for Sedano and Kap. Evidently, it acted as a tangible sign that her philosophy centered around keeping people engrossed in the content is working, and that providing the audience what it wants to hear is conducive to success.

At this year’s BSM Summit, Brown will be participating on The Wheel of Content panel, presented by Core Image Studio, featuring ESPN analyst Mina Kimes and FOX Sports host Joy Taylor. Through their discussion, she intends to showcase a different perspective of what goes into content creation and the interaction that takes place between involved parties.

“A lot of times in the past, all the talent were on one panel; all the programmers were on one panel,” Brown said. “To put talent and a programmer together, I think it’s an opportunity for people to hear both sides on certain issues.”

According to the most recent Nielsen Total Audience Report, AM/FM (terrestrial) radio among persons 18-34 has a greater average audience than television. The statistical anomaly, which was forecast several years earlier, came to fruition most likely due to emerging technologies and concomitant shifts in usage patterns.

Simultaneously, good content is required to captivate consumers, and radio, through quantifiable and qualifiable metrics, has been able to tailor its content to the listening audience and integrate it across multiple platforms of dissemination. The panel will give Brown a chance to speak in front of her peers and other industry professionals about changes in audio consumption, effectuated by emerging technologies and concomitant shifts in usage patterns.

Yet when it comes to radio as a whole, the patterns clearly point towards the proliferation of digital content – whether those be traditional radio programs or modernized podcasts. Moreover, utilizing various elements of presentation provides consumers a greater opportunity of finding and potentially engaging with the content.

“We do YouTube streaming; obviously, we stream on our app,” Brown said. “We’ve even created, at times, stream-only shows whether it’s stream-only video or stream-only on our app. We all know that people want content on-demand when they want it. I think it’s about giving them what they want.”

As a woman in sports media, Brown is cognizant about having to combat misogyny from those inside and outside of the industry, and is grateful to have had the support of many colleagues. In holding a management position in the second-largest media market in the United States, she strives to set a positive example to aspiring broadcasters. Additionally, she aims to be a trusted and accessible voice to help empower and give other women chances to work in the industry – even if she is not universally lauded.

“I’ve kind of always made it my goal to be like, ‘I’m no different than anyone else – yes, I’m a female – but I’m no different than anyone else,’” Brown expressed. “My whole goal was that I didn’t need people to like me; I needed people to respect me.”

Through attending events such as the BSM Summit and remaining immersed in sports media and the conversation at large about the future of sports media, Brown can roughly delineate how she can perform her job at a high level.

Although the genuine future of this business is always subject to change, she and her team at ESPN Los Angeles 710 are trying to come up with new ideas to keep the content timely, accurate, informative, and entertaining. She is content in her role as program director with no aspirations to become a general manager; however, remaining in her current role requires consistent effort and a penchant for learning.

“Relationships are very important overall in this business whether you’re a programmer or not,” Brown said. “Relationships with your talent; relationships with your staff. If you invest in your people, then they’re going to be willing to work hard for you and do what you ask them to do.”

The 2023 BSM Summit is mere days away, and those from Los Angeles and numerous other marketplaces will make the trip to The Founder’s Club at the Galen Center at the University of Southern California (USC).

Aside from Brown, Kimes and Taylor, there will be other voices from across the industry sharing their thoughts on aspects of the industry and how to best shape it going forward, including Colin Cowherd, Rachel Nichols, Al Michaels and Eric Shanks. More details about the industry’s premiere media conference can be found at

“I’m excited to be a female program director amongst male program directors for the first time and get a seat at the table and represent that there can be diversity in this position,” Brown said. “We don’t see a lot of it, but… there is an opportunity, and I hope I can be an example for other people out there [to show] that it’s possible.”

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BSM Writers

Pat McAfee Has Thrown Our Business Into a Tailspin

Yet even with all the accomplishments he’s been able to achieve, McAfee is still anxious and unsatisfied with the state of his show and his career.

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When you have one of the hottest talk shows in America, you’re always up to something. That’s the case for the most popular sports talk show host in America – Pat McAfee. 

The former Pro Bowl punter was on top of the world on Wednesday. With over 496,000 concurrent viewers watching at one point, McAfee was able to garner an exclusive interview with frequent guest Aaron Rodgers who announced his intention to play for the Jets.

Yet even with all the accomplishments he’s been able to achieve — a new studio, consistent high viewership, a syndication deal with SportsGrid TV, a four-year, $120 million deal with FanDuel — McAfee is still anxious and unsatisfied with the state of his show and his career.

At the end of the day, he is human and he’s admitted that balancing his show, his ESPN gig with “College Gameday,” and his WWE obligations has taken a toll on him.

McAfee and his wife are expecting their first child soon and he recently told The New York Post he might step away from his deal with FanDuel. Operating his own company has come with the responsibility of making sure his studio is up and running, finding people to operate the technology that puts his show on the air, negotiating with huge behemoths like the NFL for game footage rights, booking guests, booking hotels, implementing marketing plans and other tasks that most on-air personalities rarely have to worry about.

McAfee says he’s looking for a network that would be able to take control of those duties while getting more rest and space to spend time with family while focusing strictly on hosting duties. FanDuel has its own network and has the money to fund such endeavors but is just getting started in the content game. McAfee needs a well-known entity to work with who can take his show to the next level while also honoring his wishes of keeping the show free on YouTube.

The question of how he’s going to be able to do it is something everyone in sports media will be watching. As The Post pointed out in their story, McAfee hasn’t frequently stayed with networks he’s been associated with in the past for too long. He’s worked with Westwood One, DAZN, and Barstool but hasn’t stayed for more than a year or two.

There’s an argument to be made that the latter two companies weren’t as experienced as a network when McAfee signed on with them compared to where they are today which could’ve pushed the host to leave. But at the end of the day, networks want to put money into long-term investments and it’s easy to see a network passing on working with McAfee for fear that he’ll leave them astray when he’s bored. 

It’ll also be difficult for McAfee to find a network that doesn’t put him behind a paywall. Amazon and Google are rumored to be potential new homes. But both are trying to increase subscribers for their respective streaming services.

It will be difficult to sell Amazon on investing money to build a channel on YouTube – a rival platform. For Google, they may have the tech infrastructure to create television-like programming but they aren’t an experienced producer, they’ve never produced its own live, daily talk show, and investing in McAfee’s show doesn’t necessarily help increase the number of subscribers watching YouTube TV.

Networks like ESPN, CBS, NBC, and Fox might make sense to partner with. But McAfee faces the possibility of being censored due to corporate interests. Each of these networks also operates its networks or streaming channels that air talk programming of their own. Investing in McAfee could cannibalize the programming they already own.

And if McAfee works with a traditional network that isn’t ESPN, it could jeopardize his ability to host game casts for Omaha or analyze games on Gameday. It’s not impossible but would definitely be awkward on days that McAfee does his show remotely from locations of ESPN games with ESPN banners and signage that is visible in the background.

If SportsGrid has the money to invest in McAfee, they might be his best bet. They have all the attributes McAfee needs and they already have a relationship with him. It is probably unlikely that he’ll be censored and he would even be able to maintain a relationship with FanDuel – a company SportsGrid also works alongside.  

Roku is another option — they already work with Rich Eisen — but they would move his show away from YouTube, something McAfee should resist since the majority of smart TV users use YT more than any other app.

If the NFL gave McAfee editorial independence, they would make the perfect partner but the likelihood of that happening is slim to none. NFL Media has independence but it was clear during the night of the Damar Hamlin incident that they will do whatever is necessary to stay away from serious topics that make the league look bad until it’s totally unavoidable. 

It’s hard to think of a partner that matches up perfectly with McAfee’s aspirations. But once again, at the moment, he’s on top of the world so anything is possible. The talk show host’s next move will be even more interesting to watch than the other fascinating moves he’s already made that have put the sports media industry in a swivel.

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BSM Writers

5 Tips For Networking At the BSM Summit

“Have a plan and don’t leave home without it.”

Jeff Caves




Bring your game plan if you attend the BSM Summit in LA next Tuesday and Wednesday. No matter your purpose for attending: to learn, get a job, speak, or sell an idea, you must be able to read the room. To do that, it helps to know who will be there and how you can cure their pain. 

Have a plan and don’t leave home without it. If you have time, buy How to Work a Room by Susan Roane. If you don’t, just follow these five tips:

  1. INTRODUCE YOURSELF: Before you arrive at The Summit, figure out what you want, who you want to meet, and what you will say. Once you get there, scout out the room and see if anyone of those people are available. Talk to speakers after they have spoken- don’t worry if you miss what the next speaker says. You are there to meet new people! Most speakers do not stick around for the entire schedule, and you don’t know if they will attend any after-parties, so don’t risk it. Refine your elevator pitch and break the ice with something you have in common. Make sure you introduce yourself to Stephanie, Demetri and Jason from BSM. They know everybody and will help you if they can.  
  2. GET A NAME TAG: Don’t assume that name tags will be provided. Bring your own if you and make your name clear to read. If you are looking to move to LA or want to sell a system to book better guests, put it briefly under your name. Study this to get better at remembering names.
  3. LOSE THE NOTEBOOK: When you meet folks, ensure your hands are free. Have a business card handy and ask for one of theirs. Remember to look people in the eye and notice what they are doing. If they are scanning the room, pause until they realize they are blowing you off. Do whatever it takes to sound upbeat and open. Don’t let their clothes, hair, or piercings distract from your message. You don’t need to wear a suit and tie but do bring your best business casual wear. A blazer isn’t a bad idea either. 
  4. SHUT UP FIRST! The art of knowing when to end the convo is something you will have to practice. You can tell when the other person’s eye starts darting or they are not using body language that tells you the convo will continue. You end it by telling them you appreciate meeting them and want to connect via email. Ask for a business card. Email is more challenging to ignore than a LinkedIn request, and you can be more detailed in what you want via email. 
  5. WORK THE SCHEDULE: Know who speaks when. That is when you will find the speakers hanging around. Plan your lunch outing to include a few fellow attendees. Be open and conversational with those around you. I am a huge USC fan, so I would walk to McKays– a good spot with plenty of USC football memorabilia on the walls. Sometimes you can find the next day’s speakers at the Day 1 after party. Need a bar? Hit the 901 Club for cheap beer, drinks, and food. 

You’re welcome. 

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Barrett Media Writers

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